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by lopezolivert1＠gmail.com

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by lopezolivert1＠gmail.com

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by lopezolivert1＠gmail.com

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by lopezolivert1＠gmail.com

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by lopezolivert1＠gmail.com

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4 days, 11 hours

Re: [PATCH v19 00/40] DEPT(DEPendency Tracker)

by Byungchul Park

On Thu, Aug 20, 2026 at 06:51:08PM +0100, Matthew Wilcox wrote: > On Thu, Aug 20, 2026 at 07:16:05PM +0200, David Hildenbrand (Arm) wrote: > > > Consider this real deadlock pattern that lockdep cannot detect: > > > > > > context X context Y context Z > > > > > > mutex_lock A > > > folio_lock B > > > folio_lock B <- DEADLOCK > > > mutex_lock A <- DEADLOCK > > > folio_unlock B > > > folio_unlock B > > > mutex_unlock A > > > mutex_unlock A > > > > But that really just boils down to folio lock being implemented as a PG_lock + > > some advanced wait mechanism. And we must do that because of lack of bits in > > struct page. > > > > Willy mentioned in a previous version [1]: "I don't think it makes sense to > > track lock state in the page (nor folio). Partly because there's just so many > > of them, but also because the locking rules don't really apply to individual > > folios so much as they do to the mappings (or anon_vmas) that contain folios." > > > > Given that lockdep is a debug feature, and we will at some point allocate struct > > folio separately, I assume we could just squeeze a "struct lockdep_map" in there > > in such debug configs and the world would not collapse. > > > > Doing that today (one "struct lockdep_map" in each "struct page") wouldn't work > > as mm_zero_struct_page() would not expect such large "struct page". But > > conceptually, for a debug kernel with a special CONFIG_LOCKDEP_PAGE_LOCK, maybe > > that would already be ok and we could just do that (and optimize it as we > > allocate folios separately). > > > > Not that it's ideal, but for a debug feature to at least check PG_lock, probably > > an easier way to achieve it than some completely new infrastructure. > > > > Now, Willy said "locking rules don't really apply to individual folios", I > > wonder if that could just help to also let lockdep check PG_lock with less > > metadata? (didn't fully wrap my head around the implications) > > > > [1] > > https://lore.kernel.org/all/aR3WHf9QZ_dizNun@casper.infradead.org/?utm_sour… > > There are a few things going on that make PG_lock special. Let me try > to explain again, only better this time. > > 1. The current lifetime of a struct page is the lifetime of the system. > But the semantics of its PG_lock bit change each time it is freed and > allocated. Yes, it's a classification issue that is very important. > 2. The position of PG_lock in the locking hierarchy only depend on > what the folio is currently being used for. That is, all folios in > a given xfs inode behave exactly the same from a locking perspective. You are exactly explaining what the classification means. Perfect. > There's no need to build up state about how each PG_lock is used; > they can all share. Arguably all xfs file inodes are the same as Right. That's why DEPT doesn't use a full map in each page but just uses a timestamp in each. For the classification, DEPT uses a few classes for folio, using global maps: 1. folios in mm paths 2. folios in block device buffer (meta data) 3. folios in regular file cache However, yes. I bet you could be a big help when classifying folios more presicely according to its usage. But the current classification is still a good start I think. > each other (directory inodes might be different from file inodes), > so we might want to go further than telling DEPT that "this folio > belongs to this inode" and go to "this folio belongs to this xfs file > inode". Totally agree. > 3. PG_lock can be taken in task context then released in interrupt > context. For full points, we need to mark the exact point at which > we submit the folio for read. Otherwise we can get into the situation > alluded to by f2c817bed58d and better discussed at > https://lore.kernel.org/linux-mm/20200127150024.GN1183@dhcp22.suse.cz/ > where we have the folio locked but haven't yet submitted it for I/O > so it doesn't matter how long we wait, it will never come unlocked. Interesting. The following abstraction might make DEPT work with it. For example: Annotate the point submitting IO as an event for the folio_lock() to be released. That way, the issue above can be detected by DEPT. Again, DEPT can do every thing we need w.r.t. deadlock. Byungchul

5 days, 8 hours

Re: [PATCH v19 00/40] DEPT(DEPendency Tracker)

by Byungchul Park

On Thu, Aug 20, 2026 at 07:16:05PM +0200, David Hildenbrand (Arm) wrote: > On 7/6/26 08:18, Byungchul Park wrote: > > Hi Linus and folks, > > Hi, Hi, > I think there was plenty of feedback from locking maintainers in the past. One > question and a comment below. > > > > > DEPT(DEPendency Tracker) is a runtime deadlock detection framework that > > sees what lockdep cannot. > > > > I'm thrilled to share that DEPT has moved beyond theory and is now > > catching real deadlocks in the wild: > > > > https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/6383cde5-cf4b-facf-6e07-1378a485657d@I-love.SA… > > https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/1674268856-31807-1-git-send-email-byungchul.pa… > > https://lore.kernel.org/all/b6e00e77-4a8c-4e05-ab79-266bf05fcc2d@igalia.com/ > > > > I've added comprehensive documentation explaining DEPT's design and usage. > > Getting started is as simple as enabling CONFIG_DEPT and watching dmesg. > > > > THE PROBLEM LOCKDEP CANNOT SOLVE > > -------------------------------- > > > > Lockdep has been our trusted deadlock detector for two decades, but it > > has a fundamental blind spot: it tracks lock acquisition order, not the > > actual waits and events that cause deadlocks. This means lockdep misses: > > > > * Deadlocks involving folio locks (not released within the context) > > * Cross-context synchronization like wait_for_completion()/complete() > > * DMA fence waits, RCU waits, and general waitqueue patterns > > * Any synchronization primitive outside the classic lock/unlock model > > > > Consider this real deadlock pattern that lockdep cannot detect: > > > > context X context Y context Z > > > > mutex_lock A > > folio_lock B > > folio_lock B <- DEADLOCK > > mutex_lock A <- DEADLOCK > > folio_unlock B > > folio_unlock B > > mutex_unlock A > > mutex_unlock A > > But that really just boils down to folio lock being implemented as a PG_lock + > some advanced wait mechanism. And we must do that because of lack of bits in > struct page. > > Willy mentioned in a previous version [1]: "I don't think it makes sense to > track lock state in the page (nor folio). Partly because there's just so many > of them, but also because the locking rules don't really apply to individual > folios so much as they do to the mappings (or anon_vmas) that contain folios." Exactly. That's why we use classification e.g. lock class - DEPT also makes use of the concept. DEPT doesn't use a full map in each page but uses a minimum space for a timestamp in each to track when each starts to wait so as to use the recorded timestamp when the event occurs e.g. folio_unlock(). > Given that lockdep is a debug feature, and we will at some point allocate struct > folio separately, I assume we could just squeeze a "struct lockdep_map" in there > in such debug configs and the world would not collapse. That's a good news for lockdep. (And even for DEPT :) > Doing that today (one "struct lockdep_map" in each "struct page") wouldn't work > as mm_zero_struct_page() would not expect such large "struct page". But > conceptually, for a debug kernel with a special CONFIG_LOCKDEP_PAGE_LOCK, maybe > that would already be ok and we could just do that (and optimize it as we > allocate folios separately). Sounds great. > Not that it's ideal, but for a debug feature to at least check PG_lock, probably > an easier way to achieve it than some completely new infrastructure. I understand what you are going to tell. However, it's worth noting that lockdep tracks dependencies basically based on **lock acqusition orders** in the system. To make it track even rwlock and general synchronization mechanism as well, lockdep has no choice but to get more complicated. Focusing on only the dependency checking, the most parts of lockdep are for the tricky things, so the reusable parts are not that big. > Now, Willy said "locking rules don't really apply to individual folios", I > wonder if that could just help to also let lockdep check PG_lock with less > metadata? (didn't fully wrap my head around the implications) That's what DEPT did and what brought external wgen introduced in DEPT. I was considering the exactly same thing :) Again, lockdep that tracks lock acquisition orders can't do that. > [1] > https://lore.kernel.org/all/aR3WHf9QZ_dizNun@casper.infradead.org/?utm_sour… > > > It's your guiding example, that's why I mention it. You do mention other wait > cases here, I don't know anything about them, but for folios it's really just > "we used a single bit so far" AFAIKs. It doesn't matter whether it's implemented using bit or not. folio lock is quite special since it's allowed to be released other than the acquisition context that makes lockdep impossible to track them. > [...] > > > > > Q. Why not build DEPT into lockdep? > > > > A. Lockdep is stable, battle-tested code. I chose separation because > > while DEPT borrows BFS and hashing ideas, the wait/event model > > requires rebuilding from scratch. Lockdep was designed for lock > > acquisition order — retrofitting it would risk its stability. > > Why can't this just be some configurable extension to lockdep > (CONFIG_LOCKDEP_XYZ) until the feature is stable and can unconditionally be > enabled along with it? Answered? > I don't quite buy the "would risk its stability" argument. A lot of stuff we do > "risks stability", every day :) That's awsome anyway :) > Is there another good reason (incompatible with X, dangerous with Y, cinfusing > Z) why this really must be a separate thing? Roughly: 1. Similar or less effort is needed for the new one - retrofitting lockdep is not easy and big changes are required since the reusable parts are not that big. 2. Even though you didn't agree, retrofitting it would risk its stability. > > > > Q. Will DEPT replace lockdep? > > > > A. No. Lockdep validates correct lock usage — that's not going away. > > DEPT supersedes only the dependency-checking logic when mature. > > It's quite unfortunate that we'd end up with another similar-but-different > mechanism, that will just end up confusing people. I meant, at least dependency checking engine should be altered, but you make sense. Worth thinking it more. > But I am not a locking maintainer. I think there was plenty of discussion in the > past, so I might just be raising points that were already discussed in the past, > but I really just read some random pieces of earlier discussions. (ideally > previous discussions would be summarized here) > > Long story short: we are now in v19 and I think there was pushback in the past. > Did the opinion of locking maintainers change, or is there a way forward to > integrate this in a way that would make locking maintainers accept this? One of locking maintainers who I met in an LPC told me that he agrees with the direction of DEPT and supports DEPT, not officially tho. What he and other people are concerning w.r.t DEPT the most is, false positives, which is the most important issue for now. At the same time, I think the most important thing is to make DEPT useful in practice especially with folio locks involved. Actually, I'm planning to share DEPT's true reports periodically to LKML and work with people who believe DEPT can make things better. Any advices will be welcome. Thanks for your opinions. Byungchul > -- > Cheers, > > David

5 days, 8 hours

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